Prospective owner - a few q's

[hellgelb]

Hi there - getting back into making music now, after a couple of years of only dabbling with Ableton Live now and again.

Back when I had my own flat, no wife / kids, I had heaps of interesting kit, although not all at the same time, eg. MPC1000, MPC2000, AN1x, Q Rack, Microwave 2, Machinedrum, S770, Electribes etc etc.

To be honest, I found the set up and saving a lot of hassle and enjoyed the freedom of working on a computer. BUT now I'm getting a bit frustrated with plug-ins and fancy augmenting my Mac / Ableton with a lovely old(ish) EMU sampler.
Can't be beat for the money and I'm already thinking about things to try with the synthesis engine.

Anyway, some questions for you E64-6400-4XT-5000 owners:

1. I'm thinking I could replicate something similar to wavetable synthesis on the Voices > Realtime window, depending how many voices / samples this can be used to fade between. i.e. set up voices using single cycle waves and move between the different ones with the mod wheel etc. Is that pie-in-the-sky stuff ? I'll elaborate if it's not clear what I'm getting at.

2. Can I sample from the inputs while playing back ? ie. I want to resample a sequence played out through an external effects unit. Or can I only resample internally, and need to bounce to an external recorder otherwise?

3. Test tones: how do you sample them, is it straightforward?

4. Are the Ultra models THAT MUCH faster than non-Ultra ? My must haves are an internal HD and digital I/O, preferably SPDIF. Does that mean I have to have an E6400 or later (i.e. no E64) ?

Think that's it for now, just watching eBay etc. like a hawk, getting ready to pounce...

cheers,
Nick

[vermis_rex]

Unfortunately, I can't quite answer 1, 2, or 3, but I'll take a stab at number 4 (this is starting to sound like my calculus exam the year I failed out of engineering)

The Ultra models really are THAT MUCH faster. Consider... to start with, the Ultra processor runs at 33MHz instead of 22MHz on the classic models. Then add the fact that it's a specially designed RISC chip (reduced instruction set... rather than a common, do everything processor, it's cut down to just the essential instructions... less wasted cycles or something... hey, like I said, I failed out of engineering). If you compare MIPS (million instructions per second... a measure of how fast the processor really works, rather than just how fast it cycles), but Ultra is 25 MIPS, while the Classic is only 7 MIPS.

Yes, it's a bit more than three times the speed. It is very noticeable.

You can mount an internal hard drive in ANY of the E4 series, but pre-Ultra will only take a SCSI drive (Ultras can take a regular IDE drive). The power hook-up for the drive is a bit tricky, however... I won't go into it here, but there are other threads around discussing it. In versions of the operating system v4.62 and below, you are limited to 18Gb of disc addressing (you can install a larger drive, but the E-mu will only format and see 18GB of it). v4.7 (only runs on the Ultra models) adds the ability to read and write FAT-32 formatted drives, and can address much more space on them (I've got a 40GB Western Digital drive in my e6400-Ultra).

As for digital IO... there is a common add on that gives you AES/EBU digital format, which can be cable cludged to SPDIF (I have to dig up the reference, but I think you ground out one of the pins or something). It was standard on the E4XT models, but optional on the E6400s.

Now, I can't entirely speak to the older, pre-Classic models (sometimes referred to as "vintage"), the first generation E-IV and E64. But since you're far more likely to find a Classic or Ultra unit, it's not usually a consideration to worry about.

[hellgelb]

OK, cheers for that. Sounds like the Ultras are worth shelling out a wee bit extra for, then.

[loopcycle]

yes, wait for an ultra. i have both a classic and ultra and the performance difference is very large (esp in editing), although the classic is no slouch.

[ehasting]

Hey.. you are searching for answer excatly on the same thing that i am wondering about. but lets elaborate around it.

I have also owned a mQ, Qkeyb and microwave XTk.. i realy love waldorf but at the moment i dont own any of them.. just because wife and space :P.

But i have gotten an emu e6400 ultra.. and are fiddeling with the thoughts of getting some wavetable sound.

i wrote some thoughts about it here blogg.higen.org, but what you are suggesting is actually a idea i havent thought of yet. which gives me hope.


What we can do is that we could make like 8 single cycle samples (ie. sample down the main samples from a wavetalble from the microWave 2), then we could set it up to be layred with crossfade using the Voices Realtime Window. Here we can set up crossfade value for the diffrent voices, then distribute the 8 samples , which means sample each 16 value, and crossfade between that. (so that between value 1 and 16 are there two sample crossfading with 100% overlapp. which means sample 1 is silent at value 16, and at max on value 1, and sample 2 is silent on sample 1 and at max on value 16, and so on).

I teste the idea with a regular string sample.. and it works as i want it to.. i am able to sweep between the two samples (with diffrent filtersettings) by using controller (of my choice), and i can also get the lfo to do it.. The only thing i cant stand guarantee for is that the crossfade between the sample will sound like the aliasing used in the waldorf/ppg synths :). But i will know in the future.

You could ofcorse sample down all the 128 diffrent samples cycles and have the patch containing 1 sample for each value from 0-127. but i dont know if the efford will bring a better result :) i put my 3 cent on the crossfade solution first.

the next challenge is "how to emulate the two oscillator/wavetables model".

answer... dont know atm :P


I have access to the wavetables from MicroWave2 so i will be sample them down as mono into the sampler..

Got your answer?

[sampleandhold]

Hi there - getting back into making music now, after a couple of years of only dabbling with Ableton Live now and again.

Back when I had my own flat, no wife / kids, I had heaps of interesting kit, although not all at the same time, eg. MPC1000, MPC2000, AN1x, Q Rack, Microwave 2, Machinedrum, S770, Electribes etc etc.

To be honest, I found the set up and saving a lot of hassle and enjoyed the freedom of working on a computer. BUT now I'm getting a bit frustrated with plug-ins and fancy augmenting my Mac / Ableton with a lovely old(ish) EMU sampler.
Can't be beat for the money and I'm already thinking about things to try with the synthesis engine.

Anyway, some questions for you E64-6400-4XT-5000 owners:

1. I'm thinking I could replicate something similar to wavetable synthesis on the Voices > Realtime window, depending how many voices / samples this can be used to fade between. i.e. set up voices using single cycle waves and move between the different ones with the mod wheel etc. Is that pie-in-the-sky stuff ? I'll elaborate if it's not clear what I'm getting at.

1.) Yes you can do this. You can sample a tone... loop one cycle and have fun. I would suggest sampling the lowest possible even note (divisable by 440) so you capture the highest amount of harmonic content. If you sample something at say 440 or 880... you get kind of weak sounding bass because the harmonic content is from 440 up to 20k... sort of like a ratio kind of thing. If you sample lower... say 50hz, you get content all the way up to 20k even if it doesn't go that far. See. Oh... I tried to play 64 mono voices at once and the emu still said I have voices left... I have only a polyphony of 64... go figure. Remember.. run everything mono if you can. For this idea.. mono is the best thing you can do. If you run stereo and get too many voices going at once the bird will squawk alot and glitch out. Very painful... Especially with head phones on.

2. Can I sample from the inputs while playing back ? ie. I want to resample a sequence played out through an external effects unit. Or can I only resample internally, and need to bounce to an external recorder otherwise?

I actually don't think so... You resample externally... the best thing for you is to record your sample through the fx unit into another recorder then sample again back.


3. Test tones: how do you sample them, is it straightforward?

3. You can record these into another recorder as well. But becareful... test tones are extremely loud... you might hurt yourself... I have... Oh.. and they are sort of noisey.. The sine and such as a little bit of noise that comes along with it.

4. Are the Ultra models THAT MUCH faster than non-Ultra ? My must haves are an internal HD and digital I/O, preferably SPDIF. Does that mean I have to have an E6400 or later (i.e. no E64) ?

I am only familar with the 5000... don't know. so...

Think that's it for now, just watching eBay etc. like a hawk, getting ready to pounce...

cheers,
Nick

snh

[vermis_rex]

Yeah, the internal test tones are really only useful for calibration, not as building blocks. You'd be better off using some dead-simple shareware tone generator on your computer for a cleaner start (I can't for the life of me think of one right now, but I'm sure they're out there... that will at least give you a pure sine)

I wish I understood wavetable synthesis... is it supposed to move to the next wave in the table after just one cycle of the previous wave, or does it keep cycling one wave until you tell it to move to the next? Am I even in the right ballpark?

Oh, and on the Ultra subject... for got to add that, apparently, the DACs on the Ultra models are much improved from the Classic models; better clarity and headroom...

[hellgelb]

Thanks for all the info guys. Think I'm going to hold out for an Ultra model with HD and digi I/O.

I've got Bias Peak on my iMac and it sounds from another thread like that may work with a USB-SCSI adapter, so that should cover off the resamplinq thing. I'll most likely use Operator (the FM synth in Ableton Live) along with PPG Wave and the Waldorf Attack drum synth as my sound sources (was just curious about the test tones feature)

Looking forward to trying out some of the ideas I have for the EMU engine, will post back when I actually own one!

Regarding wavetable synthesis as implemented by Waldorf... basically, a wavetable is a selection of single-cycle waves. The synth plays back one of these at a time, but the wave it plays back can be varied by an envelope generator, LFO or mod wheel being used to point at the list (or 'table') of waves. The Waldorf wavetables are generated by taking two or more waves, positioning them in a position in the table (0 to 127) and then intermediate waves being created by interpolation to fill the gaps. So say you put a sine wave at position 0 and a square wave at position 127. The generated wavetable would have interpolated waves which moved from a sine to square wave as you move along the table. The interpolation in the Waldorf Microwave is actually based on the wave shape, BTW - not the harmonic content. So it's a little unpredictable. Anyway, in this example, using an envelope to control the position in the table would result in a pretty smoothly evolving tone. BUt if you were to put more varied waves in the table (theoretically up to 128 completely different waves), then the sound would be more... weird. Obviously the EMU won't do any of the interpolating malarkey, but using an envelope to control the level of individual voices via the Voices > Realtime window could result in a similar effect. Or at least something like the PlastiCZ softsynth, which uses an envelope to fade between two different digital osc shapes and sounds lovely & fat. Just a bit different and more interesting than using an env to sweep a filter.

Oops, got a bit carried away there... but you get the jist, I hope.

Back to eBay now !

cheers,
Nick

[robr]

If you want an Ultra with a digital I/O (known as DWAM, an extra midi I/O with SPDIF & Wordclock I/O), I'd hold out out for an E4XT Ultra as they come standard on those.

Very hard to find seperately and you may also need a PAL DWAM installation chip, which is built into some motherboards and not others, also very hard to find.

[vermis_rex]

Or at least something like the PlastiCZ softsynth, which uses an envelope to fade between two different digital osc shapes and sounds lovely & fat. Just a bit different and more interesting than using an env to sweep a filter.

Hmm... I hadn't heard of PlastiCZ before, but now that I've hunted it down online, I realize it looks veeerrrry familiar: it appears to be a softsynth version of my much-loved Casio CZ-101 ! (clearly expanded into a proper and modern version, with those effects and better mixing block... but it lacks Casio's crazy 8 stage envelopes)

Ah, it all becomes clear now (well, clearer, anyway...)

[livewire]

the E6400 Ultra's and E4XT's have been going crazy cheap on ebay recently too, i paid 152 quid for mine with 128 mb ram ( E6400 Ultra), Recently loads have been going for under 200 quid. Absolute bargain.

So dont pay much more than 250 as some people are at it and try to charge 3-4 hundred for em still. Its ok paying a bit more for an E4Xt with adat option but still wouldnt fork out 4 ton for it.

[ehasting]

Here.. and example of E-mu Wave.. the new waldorf killer :P.

I only used 3 diffrent cycles from the Chorus 2 wavetable (mw/mw2/xtk) and its crossfade between them.. the result would be close to 1 to 1 if you cared to sample down all 64 positions from each wavetable :).

Its running in a "single wavetable" setup.. since i havent figured out how to make it dual.. except for using another channel in the mult on the same midichannel.

http://www.higen.org/blogg/wp-content/u ... horus2.mp3

its filtering here as well.. but you should easy spot whats cyceling and whats filtering :)

btw. to sampleandhold:

You said it a good idea to run everything in mono, how do i set it to mono? talking about mono samples?? or is there anything i missed out?

A stereo sample take 2 voices if i understood you right??

[hellgelb]

Sounds good, the theory works !

I've been experimenting with the 'Simpler' sampler plug-in in Ableton Liive, using automation to sweep the sample start point on waves I have built up by joining different single-cycle waves together. It's quite a rough method, but the results are interesting.

Examples:

http://www.mediafire.com/?2jesenkm0nd
http://www.mediafire.com/?1dnzhswv4z1